Posted by VarmintGuy on February 13, 1999 at 15:42:45:
In Reply to: Harrassment???????? posted by Yodel Dog on February 13, 1999 at 02:31:49:
Yodel Dog: Let me comment from the perspective of a recently retired 29 year veteran of the Seattle Police Department. During this time I was supposed to issue 1 citation per day for a traffic violation this comes to about 6,600 citations. I issued at the most 2,000! But I stopped an average of 10 people a day (66,000) doing the most flagrant of violations every thing from men pushing their wives out of moving vehicles (twice) to people running over other people. All of these incidents are so called on view crimes or in some jurisdictions violations. From this wealth of experience both in the following court appearances and decisions to dealing with complaints and threats from those stopped, let me comment. Everything the officer can do and ask of the person stopped is and has been okayed by the Supreme Court of the United States. Yes the Supreme Court okayed the officer being able to ask you (demand) your occupation, age, sex etc.
That said it is puzzling to me and obviously illegal for the officer to handcuff you and put you in his (or her) police vehicle without probable cause to believe you had committed a crime other than a traffic violation (especially a minor violation like you relayed). I am puzzled to the max. Is there more to the incident? Criminals in the area? Did you tell the officer you had a CCW or did he see it in your wallet. Even this fact would not allow for the treatment you received. I was made aware hundreds of times by people I stopped that they had a pistol and a license on them and I never once asked to see the weapon or treated them any different than anyone else. They had the same odds of getting a citation (less than 1 out of 10) as anyone else I stopped. The seriosness of the violation had a direct bearing on ones odds though, I should relate as did the number of violations committed. I once stopped the former Governor of a large western state who was lane weaving. The reason he was weaving was he had the ample breast of his secretary in his mouth as he was driving. To add to his non attention to driving his wife was passed out drunk in the front seat with this romantic couple. No searches only a short lecture this time and a Taxi was summoned.
The procedures police use I seldom discuss but I will go into this for the sake of protecting the Second Amendment. I am not aware of any information tied directly to the drivers license of any state regarding a CWP (concealed weapon permit). The technology is there to within seconds find out if a particular person has a CWP but does the officer know who is driving a vehicle he sees commiting a violation. There is a good chance it is the registered owner but often not. The officer would have to type into his computer a request for registration (45 seconds to do this) then run the registered owner for CWP this usually requires more than name for instance a birthdate or SSN. The officer would have to guess at the DOB or SSN and run that for advice on CWP status. I never did it or saw anyone try it. All unknown and known persons were treated casually and carefully while being stopped. It was not my intent to offend or irritate any driver. Like I say I stopped 10 a day and only had complaints maybe 100 times and there was a very high degree of racial factor in these 100 complaints (Use your imagination here).
One of the other posters mentioned a 45 minute ordeal in the back of a police car. The last I heard the officers had time enough to write the citation or give the lecture (4-5) minutes and 20 minutes more (Supreme Court decision here again- its the law no appeal from there til the court itself changes and they wish to rehear the case) after that amount of time the stop changes from a detaining or detention to an arrest! So if I was a gentle traveller and the Police stopped me I would follow the procedure outlined in another posting and be polite on top of that. If the policeman feels it neccessary to ask you from your vehicle and you had not previously informed them of your CWP and you are carrying tell them then. Officer I have a CWP and my pistol is under my left arm pit. If you are detained more than 25 minutes I would suggest to the detaining party "Officer I need to be going I am late for blah blah blah". I would do this twice and no more. Then if you wish to initiate a grievance or a lawsuit (yes money) you can truthfully testify to your circumstance.
Someone made a comment about the changing attitude of the young officer to the older officers there may be some truth to that. I learned to be careful and cautious early in my career. One of my best friends on the force was killed by a citizen he stopped for not paying for 99 cents worth of pancakes at a cafe!
Caution should never take the form of rudeness on the part of the police.
I can honestly say that not one of the 66,000 drivers I ever stopped knew that a Smith and Wesson Model 60 was pointed at his ear (while inside my jacket pocket) during my drivers side door interviews! No need to offend anyone I say.
A note to Roy B the last I knew the officer only needed probable cause do many things, not overwhelming evidence - that is not required.
Yes have mercy on the police until you have struggled to jack up a couple of cars and remove screaming children from underneath them or chased down a dark alley a Negro armed robbery suspect dressed in Felony clothes (a common term for all black low luster clothes and shoes that do not reflect light at night) with a sawed off shotgun. Then you do not know what stress and fear are.
I have had every known type of stress aggravated/related disorder in my digestive tract that there is! I am talking from the esophagus to the anus. All of them. I once had diarhea for 7 years! Not 7 days - 7 years! I personally remember where I was the day they invented Tagamet and Zantac!
Another poster mentioned the officer eating gun syndrome! Please endure me a moment. I personally have known 3 female Law Enforcemnt Officers and about 12 male Law Enforcement Officers that took their own lives. I wept beside their graves just as proudly as the officers I have known who were killed in more traditional line of duty ways. In my opinion these officers did not terminate their existance out of cowardice or an inability to cope with the stress they killed themselves I believe out of a sense of frustation with the system that allowed innocent people to be victimized over and over again by the same few demons. The courts repeatedly allow the most heinous of humans loose to reoffend. I am talking baby rapers here, pedophiles, rapists, murderers and the like! Try dealing with that on a one to one basis for 25 years! It doesn't have much to do with traffic stops. By the way 2 of my comrades who took their own lives and another who was killed by a bank robber were Marines and I always say out loud Semper Fi when I think of them. "Semper Fi'.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy